Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

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ewv
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

[quote="apondsong"]I am still all FOR protecting the vernal pools. I clearly see the need for them, and consider them an asset rather than a hinderance to the value of ones land.

This new regulation does not make me feel that my "property rights" have been harmed in any way what-so-ever. In fact, I feel any land harboring one to be of more value...not less. Since most of the pools dry up after the spring run-off is done, misquitoes is\\are not that big a problem. And blackflies need running water to breed.[/quote]
This is how viros try to weasel out of paying for what they take. They claim that what they are doing to other people is of value to themselves, then rationalize that to mean it is an "intrinsic value" for everyone so nothing has been taken. They might as well as wander into a bank, rob the vault at gunpoint, announce that they prefer empty vaults, then claim nothing was stolen because empty vaults and subservient bank tellers are a good thing so they shouldn't be hunted down and imprisoned for their crimes.

Beth O'Connor
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

[quote="apondsong"]I am still all FOR protecting the vernal pools. I clearly see the need for them, and consider them an asset rather than a hinderance to the value of ones land.

This new regulation does not make me feel that my "property rights" have been harmed in any way what-so-ever. In fact, I feel any land harboring one to be of more value...not less. Since most of the pools dry up after the spring run-off is done, misquitoes is\\are not that big a problem. And blackflies need running water to breed.[/quote]

good God apondsong, I suggest you get a reality check here "This new regulation does not make me feel that my " property" rights" have been harmed in any way what-so-ever." You are a typical enviro whacko and a selfish son of a b****. "MY" so this is all about you and never mind the poor people who have worked hard for what is rightfully theirs so people like you can vote for ignorant harmful laws in the name of black flies and mosquitos...go have a picnic next to a vernal pool and may you be bit by the mosquito carrying West Nile Virus and while your at it sign up for Dirigo to cover your pondscum fanny. :evil:

Mark T. Cenci
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

apondsong: I am for protecting them too.

I still think there is a better way.

Here is one idea: Instead of punishing someone who's land happens to contain them, with inflexible setback rules, we could relax restrictions on the portions of their land that do not contain the pools.

The relaxation could be in the form of reduced road frontage requirements or lot size requirements etc.

This would allow for protection of both the pools and the land owner.

The new rules do not exclude use of the land, it reduces total developed area to 25%. So when you add up house, driveway and lawn it can't be more than 25% of the total area in the setback radius. That comes out to roughly 2 acres per house, which is similar to most current density requirements. So we would not have to alter the densities of the non-vernal pool areas that much to pay respect to the landowners.

All they would have to do is insert language into the vernal pool legislation calling for "NO NET LOSS OF PROPERTY VALUE".
They would have to negotiate with the Army Corps, for them to respect this however.

BlueJay
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

Mark, can you tell me when the term "vernal pool" was coined? :?
From what I'm told it's not a term heard around the UMO School of Forestry back in the 60's.

Mark T. Cenci
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Don't know. Maybe in the 70's or 80's when wetland science was developing.

BlueJay
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

[quote="Mark T. Cenci"] [color=red][i]Maybe in the 70's or 80's when wetland science was developing[/i][/color].[/quote] :shock:

Astounding to think that scientists had completely failed to indentify such important, specifically significant science until the 70's. Simply astounding. :roll:

Mark T. Cenci
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

Well Blue, I don't know for sure. Maybe certain scientists always knew about vernal pools, but were ignored by forestry depts. After all, they are not sites of great timberstands.

I do think they have value. And I think a case can be made for gov't to act to protect them.

The best case gov't has is the protection of waterways. Because of our tradition of public ownership of waterways and lakes, I do believe there is a case for gov't to exert the rights of public interest on lakefront, ocean front and riverfront and stream front property, but only so far as to not degrade the waterways.

The case is weaker with vernal pools, but maybe still can be made.

As always it is a matter of respecting [i]all [/i]rights.

JBC
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

[quote]The recent U. S. Supreme Court decision (SWANCC), which deemed “isolated” wetlands to be outside the class of “waters of the United States,” places some significant but unknown proportion of vernal pools at risk.[/quote]

[url=http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&issn=0277-5212&volu... Link[/url]

This may have an impact on the 750 foot buffer the Corps. of Eng. are talking about but the State of Maine is another matter.

Roger Ek
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

The Army Corps of Engineers is supposed to be involved with navigable waterways, not skidder ruts. These extremists have tried to declare any place a cedar can grow was a wetland. There are cedars on mountain tops in Maine. All of Maine is in one watershed or another. When I attended the Gulf of Maine conference at the Samoset shortly after Angus King's second election the greens were on a roll. They had a map showing all of Maine and large areas of Quebec and New Brunswick as the watershed feeding the Gulf of Maine and they want to control it all.

They are winning and their new point man is Ted Koffman of the Audobon Society. Mainers elect these radicals to serve in Augusta.

Mark T. Cenci
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JBC, you are a surveyor, correct? What do you think of a "no net loss of property value" insertion into the legislation?

BlueJay
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

[quote="Mark T. Cenci"]
I do think they have value.
The case is weaker with vernal pools, but maybe still can be made.[/quote]
Well, as long as the gov't. looks at them in July or August. :wink:

Seriously, Mark, the whole concept is being used as a ploy to take away the rights of property owners. Just as ewv said, [i]vernal[/i] is [i]spring[/i]. Very poetic to be sure, but also temporary, ie. [b]a mud puddle[/b].

Mark T. Cenci
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

A property owner can't go out and shoot all the deer in a deer yard on his property. Nor can he sell to others the rights to do so.

Is that wrong?

I understand property rights. I oppose zoning, you know.

Editor
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

DEPARTMENT OF INLAND FISHERIES & WILDLIFE
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007

Division of Public Information and Education
207-287-8000
284 State Street, State House Station #41, Augusta, ME 04333
For More Outdoor Information, and Sporting Licenses 24 Hours A Day, 7 Days A Week, Please Visit:
http://www.mefishwildlife.com or contact [email]ralph.brissette@maine.gov[/email]

Vernal Pools

Vernal pools are small, forested wetlands that frequently fill with water from early spring snowmelt and rains and then dry partly or completely by mid to late summer. Many of Maine’s amphibians use vernal pools as breeding or foraging habitat. Some, like spotted salamanders, blue spotted salamanders, and wood frogs, breed more successfully in these fishless habitats than in any other wetland type.

Additionally, vernal pools provide habitat for a variety of small mammals, wading birds, waterfowl, aquatic invertebrates, and several state-listed animal species including Blanding’s turtles (Endangered), spotted turtles (Threatened), wood turtles (Special Concern), four-toed salamanders (Special Concern), ribbon snakes (Special Concern) and ringed boghaunter dragonflies (Endangered).

We still have more to learn about why some vernal pools receive greater wildlife use than others. To this end, grants from the Outdoor Heritage Fund and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency helped support a recently completed University of Maine study by Dr. Robert Baldwin and Dr. Aram Calhoun, to research the wildlife use and characteristics of vernal pools in four southern townships – Falmouth, Biddeford, Kennebunkport, and North Berwick. Rob and Aram’s results suggest that wood frogs and other pool-breeding amphibians range widely in the forested landscape following breeding and that surrounding upland forests and forested swamps provide important habitat outside of the brief pool-breeding season. Rob also developed a landscape model that highlights the vulnerability of vernal pools to habitat loss and fragmentation from insufficient conservation lands and wetland regulations in southern Maine.

IFW is currently cooperating with the Department’s of Environmental Protection and Conservation, Maine Audubon Society, and the University of Maine to identify potential strategies for protecting the unique values provided by smaller wetlands that “fall through the cracks” of current wetland regulations. Workshops on vernal pools continue to be held throughout the state for landowners and land managers, and several new publications designed to offer voluntary techniques for protecting vernal pools and their wildlife are now available. A vernal pool fact sheet, describing threats and management considerations, is available upon request from MDIFW for use by landowners, municipalities, land trusts, and other cooperators. The Maine Citizen’s Guide to Locating and Documenting Vernal Pools provides a comprehensive introduction to recognizing and monitoring vernal pools, including color photographs of the indicator species. Also recently available to the public are two complementary guidebooks for protecting vernal pool habitat during timber management (Forestry Habitat Management Guidelines for Vernal Pool Wildlife) and development (Conserving Pool-breeding Amphibians in Residential and Commercial Developments in the Northeastern United States).

Together, these publications provide recommendations designed to help maintain functioning vernal pool landscapes throughout Maine. All of the guides can be obtained by contacting Becca Wilson at Maine Audubon Society (207-781-6180 ext. 222; [email]bwilson@maineaudubon.org[/email] .

Finally, the Dept’s of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife and Environmental Protection recently developed a definition of Significant Vernal Pools, a new Significant Wildlife Habitat under the state’s Natural Resource Protection Act, approved by the state legislature in 2006. Criteria for designating “significant” vernal pools include a) the presence of a state Endangered or Threatened species, or b) evidence of exceptional breeding abundance by amphibian indicator species. Designating a subset of vernal pools as “significant” will help state agencies provide regulatory guidance on development activities within a critical upland buffer zone surrounding one of the state’s highest value wildlife habitats.

###

BlueJay
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

[quote="Editor"]DEPARTMENT OF INLAND FISHERIES & WILDLIFE
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007

...Criteria for designating “significant” vernal pools include a) the presence of a state Endangered or Threatened species, or b) evidence of exceptional breeding abundance by amphibian indicator species. [color=green][i]Designating a subset of vernal pools as “significant” will help state agencies provide regulatory guidance on development activities [/i][/color]within a critical upland buffer zone surrounding one of the state’s highest value wildlife habitats.

[size=18][color=red]BALDERDASH! [/color][/size]

apondsong
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

Bethe....I can only speak for myself in regard to how I feel about an issue. I care deeply about the average joe and the under-dog as well. I also care deeply about our wildlife here in Maine and preserving a very fragile and VALUABLE ecosystem. I care about all life.

Mark...I appreciated that last post and where you are coming from in regard to this issue. I too, believe there can be a compromise struck.

It is disheartenig when other posters are so outrageously rude. So that is my thinking on it...and I will leave it at that (as far as this thread goes).

Mark T. Cenci
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

The rudeness is a measure of the powerlessness and frustration the current rules cause.

I said they cause undue strife and I meant it.

David Jones
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

[quote="Mark T. Cenci"]apondsong: I am for protecting them too.

I still think there is a better way. Here is one idea: Instead of punishing someone who's land happens to contain them, with inflexible setback rules, we could relax restrictions on the portions of their land that do not contain the pools.
The relaxation could be in the form of reduced road frontage requirements or lot size requirements etc.
This would allow for protection of both the pools and the land owner.
The new rules do not exclude use of the land, it reduces total developed area to 25%. So when you add up house, driveway and lawn it can't be more than 25% of the total area in the setback radius. That comes out to roughly 2 acres per house, which is similar to most current density requirements. So we would not have to alter the densities of the non-vernal pool areas that much to pay respect to the landowners.

All they would have to do is insert language into the vernal pool legislation calling for "NO NET LOSS OF PROPERTY VALUE".
They would have to negotiate with the Army Corps, for them to respect this however.[/quote]

These people are not looking to compromise. They already have the law passed and it will take effect in September. The amount of vernal pools in Maine is overwhelming. Even their own experts can not give an estimate of how many are needed. They just want to stop any development in Maine that is the bottom line. If you compromise with them they win another battle. This is not more than "incramentalization" at its' finest. They do it with land and they do it with our 2nd Amendment right.

Editor
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How about this for a compromise: When government renders private property useless we consider it a taking, for which, government must pay the property owner full-market value for his property.

skf

David Jones
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SKF,

Absolutely, but good luck getting done with the people we have in office. If we had GOOD PEOPLE holding a MAJORITY, laws like this would never get to this point.

Beth O'Connor
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[quote="Editor"]How about this for a compromise: When government renders private property useless we consider it a taking, for which, government must pay the property owner full-market value for his property.

skf[/quote]

Excellent idea...pray tell where will the state get the money to pay for this?

Does this mean this regulation will die?

Mark T. Cenci
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Compensation for takings has died in committee in the past.

My idea isn't a compromise. It is a huge win for property rights.

No net loss of property values. It would be the first recognition of the harmful effects on property values by enviro rules.

btrsweet
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

In Berwick we are facing this sort of crisis right now.

We have a handful of citizens who are using the vernal pools and set backs as an excuse to stop development. One person had full disclosure when she bought a house in a development that the land behind her would also be developed. Now she's complaining. Another woman is having a hissy fit because of an emergency right of way that she knew existed when she bought her property over 15 years ago and knew the land behind her would be developed. Now a development is being proposed and she doesn't want anyone using the right of way next to her property. Another woman, plain and simple doesn't want "trailers" in her back yard. They circulated a petition to have the town enact 350' set backs from wetlands of any kind, including vernal pools, natural and man made.

None of those people care about the environment and probably couldn't pick out a spotted salamander if they had to. They are all concerned with what's going in their back yards or what is going to obstruct their views.

Thankfully, in Berwick, we have a large contingency of citizens who value private property rights and who immediately banded together and worked hard to have that petition not accepted by the Selectmen and not added to the ballot in May because it would cause a severe hardship to citizens and the town. We stood out in the freezing cold at the transfer station handing out info to citizens on what was being proposed to their property rights, we wrote letters to the editor, we sent out mailings to all citizens, we went knocking on doors.

The people who wanted to implement the new land ordinance had 320 signatures on their petition to have the matter on the ballot. It took them weeks to collect those signatures. Many citizens attended the selectmen's meeting and complained because they were misled about the intent of the petition. They slyly collected signatures at illegal venues. The signature collectors said it was for the "animals", but upon closer examination it was determined that the petition amounted to nothing more than an anti-development stance. The group had earlier called for a development moratorium but that was denied. Our group collected over 560 signatures in less than 5 days to plead with the selectmen not to accept the petition or put the matter on the ballot even though it was a valid petition. All selectmen agreed the petition was trash and we got it tossed.

Had we not had a core of freedom fighters here in town, this land use petition probably would have gone through.

Perhaps some protection is needed. However, when you have NIMBYs using the environment to create hardships and take away property rights of other citizens, that's wrong. Citizens need to keep their ears to the ground and immediately take action when they know property rights are being threatened. Don't depend on someone else to do that for you!

When plunder is happening to you, with your own property, it's a very upsetting to say the least. So you get very passionate protecting what is yours against people who want to seize the products of the labor of others.

JBC
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This bill would go a long way in exposing the theft that is taking place.

LD 205: An Act To Require Regulatory Impact Estimates on Private Property

summary
This bill requires an agency adopting a rule to develop an impact statement specifying how the rule would affect private property values. The impact statement must specify whether the rule will have no significant impact, significant positive impact, significant negative impact or significant positive and negative impact. The impact statement must be made public no less than 45 days before the rule is adopted.

[url=http://janus.state.me.us/legis/LawMakerWeb/externalsiteframe.asp?ID=2800...

Fiscal Note

Potential current biennium cost increase - General Fund
Potential current biennium cost increase - Highway Fund
Potential current biennium cost increase - Other Special Revenue Funds

Fiscal Detail and Notes
The fiscal impact to state agencies associated with preparing the required impact statements will depend on the scope of the analysis required to provide an accurate assessment of the effect on private property values. An extensive analysis could [b]significantly increase costs[/b]; the amounts can not be determined at this time.

Editor
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

I am uploading a one-hour radio interview in which Mary Alice Davis tells what happened to her Falmouth home and property. It's a 55MB "wav" file. It's uploading now. When it's ready I'll put a link here.

skf

Beth O'Connor
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

[quote="Mark T. Cenci"]The rudeness is a measure of the powerlessness and frustration the current rules cause.

I said they cause undue strife and I meant it.[/quote]

My apologies to apondsong for my rudeness. There is no excuse for name calling.

It is heartwrenching watching people who have worked hard all their lives be stripped of their honestly obtained wealth because of government regulation and I can't sit idly by and allow this to happen. It is my opinion that these people and their individual rights are far more important than a few salamanders...especially when the scientific data shows that they can and do move from place to place and do not return to the same places every year.

This to me is a huge assault on our individual liberties.

BlueJay
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[quote="Beth O'Connor"]
It is my opinion that these people and their individual rights are far more important than a few salamanders...[color=red][b]especially when the scientific data shows that they can and do move from place to place and [u]do not return to the same places every year.[/[/u]b][/color].[/quote]

BINGO :!: Thank you for that. I hope this is spread far and wide.

Mark T. Cenci
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Can you fix that quote please Blue Jay? It makes it appear that I said what Beth said and I definitely did not.

ewv
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

[quote="apondsong"]Bethe....I can only speak for myself in regard to how I feel about an issue. I care deeply about the average joe and the under-dog as well. I also care deeply about our wildlife here in Maine and preserving a very fragile and VALUABLE ecosystem. I care about all life.

Mark...I appreciated that last post and where you are coming from in regard to this issue. I too, believe there can be a compromise struck.

It is disheartenig when other posters are so outrageously rude. So that is my thinking on it...and I will leave it at that (as far as this thread goes).[/quote]
The personal intrusion and damage by the viros' coercive interference in the lives of others is far worse than any "rudeness" possibly could be. The viro movement's undue influence has captured government to coercively impose an eco-preservationist ideology on innocent people who are being increasingly and badly hurt by it as their rights are systematically violated by accumulating, punitive viro social controls.

The insistence -- posturing as civilized behavior -- that viro apologists could be legitimately offended by mere rude words in response from their victims is a farce. So is the notion that they should be granted more and more "compromises" as a tool to perpetually take more and more. They deserve to be thoroughly denounced for what they are doing to people and have no business demanding the continued subservience of their victims. It is long past time that anyone should mistake them as idealists deserving a civilized benefit of the doubt. This is not "name calling"; it is identifying them for what they are and judging them accordingly. No one should allow himself to be manipulated into feel guilty for that.

JIMV
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[quote="Beth O'Connor"][quote="Editor"]How about this for a compromise: When government renders private property useless we consider it a taking, for which, government must pay the property owner full-market value for his property.

skf[/quote]

Excellent idea...pray tell where will the state get the money to pay for this?

Does this mean this regulation will die?[/quote]

Where does the state get off with the taking in the first place? Oregon has a good bill. If the government decides something is in the public interest that will cost a property owner value, the public who has the interest pays for their interest. If they decide not to, then the regulation on that bit of property is waived.

In short,the folk claiming a public interest have to pay for their interest.

It seem sto have cut down on such government greed a lot.

Bullseye
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Vernal Pools will cause many Property Values to plummet!!!

I've seen wetland or vernal pool conditions caused
by the improper installation of culverts, catch basins,
or other structures.

Very often drainage lines are purposely installed high,
creating wetland situations, when installing drains at
the appropriate elevation would have mitigated the
situation.

Poorly maintained roadside ditches can exercebate
drainage problems.

Private drainage swales with minimal pitch can over time
end up with no pitch. Grass goes through a process every
fall called "Tillering". Tillering occurs when the existing blades
of the grass plant are joined by additional new shoots.

Over the course of just a few growing seasons the bulking
up of the sod in the bottom of a natural swale can easily
restrict the flow of water creating wetland or vernal pool
conditions.

It would be well worth the time to investigate whether or
not the actions or inaction of Government caused the
water problem on your land.

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