Petitions seek vote on tax cap

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James
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

No George, there is noting at all "Fair" in a process that decides what a persons home is worth based not on any action by the owner, but on the actions of others who have bought or built homes in the area. This is thieving by government plain and simple. Just because Biff from Boston builds a pleasure palace down the road from Bob the fsherman is no reason for Bob to lose the home his family has owned for generations. Any system that assumes wealth is a false system designed only to gather as much money as possible at any cost.Our current system results in only the rich owning prime real estate through the simple process of the greed of government making it impossible for normal people to keep what they and their families have always owned. It destroys the idea of a Maine of rugged individuals and makes it instead a place of bureaucrats, people with their hands out and yuppies from away. I don't believe this is a change for the better. I don't want to be New Jersey north.

Anonymous
Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

Who is selling to the people from New Jersey? The rugged Maine people who complain about taxes don't complain when they get the big checks from the folks from out of state.But if there is really a problem of long time property owners being forced out, there are better ways to deal with it. The Palesky plan will give a big break to the millionaire from New York who bought his ocean front property in 1996 but not to the young family who is struggling to pay the mortgage on the modest house they bought this year. That's nuts.[ 06-08-2003: Message edited by: George ]

James
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

quote:Originally posted by George:
[b]Who is selling to the people from New Jersey? The rugged Maine people who complain about taxes don't complain when they get the big checks from the folks from out of state.

The problem is not with the people who decide to sell to the yuppies nor is the problem with the yuppies. The problem is with a tax system that allows this transaction to effect the ability of completely disconnected people to stay in their homes. Even this would not be a problem is our government at all levels was not so astoundingly greedy.

quote: But if there is really a problem of long time property owners being forced out, there are better ways to deal with it. The Palesky plan will give a big break to the millionaire from New York who bought his ocean front property in 1996 but not to the young family who is struggling to pay the mortgage on the modest house they bought this year. That's nuts.[ 06-08-2003: Message edited by: George ][/b]

Gearge, I would agree with this paragraph if i thought there was a single chance in a million of any level of government in Maine actually doing something to fix this problem without raising taxes under the guise of "reform".This is Maine. We sold our souls to the devil of overspending and the Nanny state decades ago. There is simply no chance at all of Augusta actually stopping the madness unless the taxpayers cut off the money. I will vote for any and all tax cap initiatives as the result will not be worse than the certainty we already live under, a certainty of higher taxes and ever more business and taxpayer flight.

Anonymous
Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

quote:Originally posted by James:
[b]There is simply no chance at all of Augusta actually stopping the madness unless the taxpayers cut off the money. I will vote for any and all tax cap initiatives as the result will not be worse than the certainty we already live under, a certainty of higher taxes and ever more business and taxpayer flight.[/b]

And the Palesky tax cap will do nothing to reduce the amount of revenue going to the people in Augusta. It just passes the buck like the MMA referendum. What will likely happen is what happened in California -- state taxes and local fees will increase to make up for the lost revenue at the local level -- giving the State House politicians even more power over decisions at the local level.[ 06-08-2003: Message edited by: George ]

mirgliP
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

quote:you get back most if not all of the money invested

This will cease to be true in the very near future, look at the projections.There is no guaranteed benefit from Social Security. The benefits can be (and have been) changed at the whim of the government. That's why it is a tax and not a "retirement plan".

Anonymous
Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

Social Security has become a source of cash for congress to spend. Benefits are raised from current appropriations. Congress has been very adept at keeping the great masses in the dark on this. They THINK their contributions are being invested for them. Little do they know...

HenryGonzalez
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

Randy,Still waiting...nd

mirgliP
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

None,Its simple math, all you do is add 14% to all the income tax rates to get the [i]real[/i] tax rate.So even someone that pays zero income tax due to the earned income tax credit still pays 14% on every dollar they earn at work. Those that make over the Social Security cap do not pay this 14%.

James
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

quote:Originally posted by George:
[b]And the Palesky tax cap will do nothing to reduce the amount of revenue going to the people in Augusta. It just passes the buck like the MMA referendum. What will likely happen is what happened in California -- state taxes and local fees will increase to make up for the lost revenue at the local level -- giving the State House politicians even more power over decisions at the local level.[ 06-08-2003: Message edited by: George ][/b]

Yes but the money looted by the state is money from all and not just money from people owning property collected without regard to the property owners ability to pay.You make another point that is telling. I am from away, though I have lived in maine about 9 years. Maine prides itself on local control BUT the effect of this local control is a lower standard of living for all. The vast overspending is not a problem limited to Augusta but is running rampant at our local city halls. Just what do we get as a result fo "local control" that we would not have with a more efficient government? All I see is a bloated infrastructure of bureaucrats and VAST taxes.Somehow, someday, we have to ask ourselves "Why are we number one in taxes? Why is my mill rate highter than Bostons or NY Citys?"If taxes were the answer to anything, Maine, as number one, should be on the cusp of Nirvana, Paridise on earth. Instead we are on the brink of economic collasp. Even Democrats must eventually ask themselves what is going wrong.

James
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

quote:Originally posted by Randy:
[b]None,Its simple math, all you do is add 14% to all the income tax rates to get the [i]real[/i] tax rate.So even someone that pays zero income tax due to the earned income tax credit still pays 14% on every dollar they earn at work. Those that make over the Social Security cap do not pay this 14%.[/b]

Randy, I pay almost 50% in total taxes. If I was to move to Florida that would drop to about 42%. Even at that level, I am paying WAY more than 14% as a total tax burden.Do your homework and break out the tax tables and show how your point adds up. Hint..it doesn't

Melvin Udall
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

In very round numbers, per capita income in my town is $20,000. Town governments spends about $2,000 per capita, or 10%. State government spends about $2,000 per capita, or another 10%. Federal government spends almost $10,000 per capita, or about 50%.Yeah, yeah, I know. Revenue sharing and the like.Regardless, the amount of money moved by your governments is about 70% of per capita income. Anyway you look at it, that's beaucoup francs.Now look into how much of that is "payment to individuals." Very little at the local level; quite a bit at the state level; and boatloads at the federal level.

mirgliP
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

My point was simply that the arguement that low income people don't pay taxes is simply not true. Also that any implementation of a flat tax must include the payroll tax.I didn't say the tax system wasn't progressive, just that basing the flat tax argument only on federal income tax is wrong. You prove my point by bringing up state taxes and your "total tax" burden.

James
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

I'm sorry randy. I misunderstood. I thought you were trying to make a case that the 94% vs 6% was in some way invalid or worse, that the tax refund should go to those who do not pay income taxes!I have never said that the bottom 50% don't pay taxes, just that the amount paid is miniscule in comparison to that paid by others yet they have a disproportionate voice in the total tax decision process. As long as politicians can pander to this group using the promise of benefits or money that comes from the other group...well, we'll always have a major problem here. :eek:

mirgliP
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

I would prefer to say that the middle 50% pay 95% of the taxes, which is really where the problem lies.

HenryGonzalez
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

I suppose then, Randy, James's orignal comment is not exactly meaningless, is it?

James
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

Because that would not be true. your 50% runs from obove the lower 25% to below the upper 75%. If the 25% below the 50% middle paid all the 6% paid by the entire lower 50% of taxpayers then the next 25% above would have to pay 89% of the remaining taxes ans the top 25% would only pay 5% of all taxes.I know this doesn't read well, but what I am trying to say is your numbers are simply wrong. The top 5% pays over 30% of all income taxes. Put another way, they pay 5 times more than th total paid by the bottom 50% of tax payers.The rich pay and the middle class/poor receive the benefit

mirgliP
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

quote:The rich pay and the middle class/poor receive the benefit

The problem with these statistics is that the highest decile or quintile has a range of millions of dollars while the lowest has a range of only 20K or so in income. They are adjusted so that there are equal numbers of taxpayers in each decile, not a proportional amount of income. Even a flat tax would show the highest decile (by head count) paying a large chunk of taxes, so what?? The idea that the rich are supporting the middle class is rediculous, unless your defining "rich" to be somewhere around 50K AGI.

James
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

If it's ridiculous, show me the numbers that prove me wrong. That's the problem in maine. We act not on data but on feelings and "we just know it is so". Our curent argument on the Governor's Health care plan is an example. We just know we have a problem and we feel the pain on the part of the 14% who do not have insurance so, we will rush along and destroy the health care of the remaining 86% and tax the daylingts out of everyone in the process.Look at real numbers? debate a real plan and not a concept? Study the details? Look for the drawbacks? heck no...we have a deadline to meet. ;)[ 06-09-2003: Message edited by: James ]

mirgliP
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

OK,Welcome to our flat earth. There is only one kind of income and only one tax rate. There are 20 taxpayers that earn the following income:1 $10
2 $15
3 $20
4 $25
5 $30
6 $35
7 $40
8 $45
9 $50
10 $55
11 $60
12 $65
13 $70
14 $75
15 $80
16 $85
17 $90
18 $95
19 $100
20 $105The lowest 20% has a total income of $70 and a tax of $7.00
The second 20% has a total income of $150 and a tax of $15.00
The third 20% has a total income of $230 and a tax of $23.00
The forth 20% has a total income of $310 and a tax of $31.00
The fifth 20% has a total income of $390 and a tax of $39.00The total tax paid is $115.00SHOCK! the top 20 percent pays more tax than the bottom 50%, even with a flat tax. Now if you increase the top taxpayer's income to say $1000, then the tax on the top 20% will be $128.50, almost double what the bottom 80% pay! Remember this is a flat tax.This is precisely how the statistic you quoted was calculated, and why it is so meaningless. It takes no account of how much income is contained in each quintile, only how many taxpayers are in each. It is not a reflection of progressive taxation, only of the fact that rich people have more income than poor ones (duh).Even with a flat tax this statistic would appear to show that the rich subsidize everybody else, after all, they have the money!

Doug Thomas
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

I never could understand the logic of punishing people who work hard and save, so we could reward people who won't work.

Jean Carbonneau
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

Doug: It's very easy to understand. It's called "envy". I would recomend to anyone to read the book, "The Millionaire Next Door". It's amazing how people who work hard, save, and invest prudently, and take a week to make major purchases are continued to be malinged and ridculed, when they should be held up as role models for everyone to emulate. Well, these mavericks are now riducled as the "robber barons" of the 20th and 21st century.

James
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Re: Petitions seek vote on tax cap

quote:Originally posted by Randy:
[b]OK,SHOCK! the top 20 percent pays more tax than the bottom 50%, even with a flat tax. Now if you increase the top taxpayer's income to say $1000, then the tax on the top 20% will be $128.50, almost double what the bottom 80% pay! Remember this is a flat tax.This is precisely how the statistic you quoted was calculated, and why it is so meaningless. It takes no account of how much income is contained in each quintile, only how many taxpayers are in each. It is not a reflection of progressive taxation, only of the fact that rich people have more income than poor ones (duh).Even with a flat tax this statistic would appear to show that the rich subsidize everybody else, after all, they have the money![/b]

Yes Randy but it is the ultimate answer to why the "rich" get the tax cuts, or put another way. "these tax cuts are only for the rich". Using your numbers or mine, only the rich PAY the taxes.At least with a flat tax there are no complete freeloaders. :D

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