George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

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Butch Moore
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Protecting our last, best brook trout
We've nearly lost this great Maine legacy

George Smith Kennebec Journal & Morning Sentinel Wednesday, April 11, 2007

Maine has done a poor job of protecting and managing its native brook trout over the last century. There is plenty of blame to go around. We deliberately stocked competing species in brook trout waters, ruined a lot of spawning habitat and changed entire ecosystems with illegally or inadvertently introduced exotic species

http://morningsentinel.mainetoday.com/view/columns/3798838.html

Butch Moore
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

[quote]The proposal would direct DIF&W to adopt a list of wild brook trout waters, defined as waters where the brook trout is the principle fishery based on natural reproduction and where [b]stocking of any species has not occurred in at least 25 years.[/b][/quote]

Apparently George still hasn't read what the bill says:

[quote] 1. Adoption of secondary list of brook trout waters. The commissioner shall adopt by rule a list of secondary brook trout waters composed of lakes and ponds that contain eastern brook trout and, as of the effective date of this subsection, have [b]not been stocked in at least 20 years[/b]. Rules adopted pursuant to this subsection are major substantive rules as defined in Title 5, chapter 375, subchapter 2-A.

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/billtexts/LD028501.asp[/quote]

The bill says 20 years, not 25 George.

[quote][b]A total of 223 lakes and ponds would be governed by this proposal.[/b] Of those 223 waters, 58 currently allow the use of live fish as bait. And 14 of those 58 waters allow ice fishing.[/quote]

Wrong again. Here is the Official B list created in response to the "Heritage Brook Trout Act," straight from IF&W:

http://www.neoutdoorvoice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2734

And here is IF&W's current list of affected waters and stocking programs (close to 500 waters and 100 stocking programs) [b]based on the language of the bill[/b] linked to above:

http://www.neoutdoorvoice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3023

There's a whole lot more waters affected by this legislation than we are being told by SAM.

Roger Ek
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Some of those waters are interconnected with other waters not yet designated. We are not talking about isolated mountain ponds where trout can't get up over a waterfall or something. Those few ponds should be designated as NLFAB or "No live fish as bait". This isn't about brook trout so much as it's about elitist fly fishing opportunities.

Brian Golden
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Roger,
Whyare flyfisherman elitist? Most people I know that are avid flyfisherman also fish with spinning gear, bait etc. and most also ice fish. The big craze over flyfishing from the movie "A River Runs Through It" did bring a lot of people into the sport that did not grow up dunking worms in the local brooks, but many of us grew up dunking worms and we aslo learned to fly fish. Most of us are not elitist.

Town Manager
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

This would kill the ice fishing industry in Northern Maine. Smith & Co. should pack their lunch and go on a one-way hunting trip to Deliverance.

Butch Moore
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

[quote]Whyare flyfisherman elitist?[/quote]

Brian, he didn't say all fly fishermen are elitists. If you're really worried that you are, read this:

[url=http://www.neoutdoorvoice.com/blogs/index.php?/archives/22-Are-you-a-fly... you a fly-fishing elitist?[/url]

Butch Moore
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout
democrat
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Maybe roger can tell us the difference between an "elitist fly-fishing opportunity" and a regular fly-fishing opportunity. Or are all fly-fishing opportunities elitist in his eyes? Or maybe fly fishing for bass is ok with him, but fly fishing for trout elitist? Maybe he just likes the work elitist because it makes him feel better about himself. So many questions!!

Town, just how would this "kill" the ice fishing "industry" in northern Maine?

Town Manager
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Thanks Butch. We will be sending a contingent to the public hearing when it is held.

TM

Town Manager
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

[quote="democrat"]Maybe roger can tell us the difference between an "elitist fly-fishing opportunity" and a regular fly-fishing opportunity. Or are all fly-fishing opportunities elitist in his eyes? Or maybe fly fishing for bass is ok with him, but fly fishing for trout elitist? Maybe he just likes the work elitist because it makes him feel better about himself. So many questions!!

Town, just how would this "kill" the ice fishing "industry" in northern Maine?[/quote]

Ice fisherman use live bait. Using dead bait is not very popular. Not only will the ice fisherman not fish on the lakes that are "protected" the mom and pop shops that depend on selling live bait as part of their livelihood will be devestated. PM me if you are interested and I can send you a list of plenty of these stores that DO NOT want this to go through.

pmh
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

If you Google the various discussion groups devoted to fishing in Maine, you'll soon see what Roger & Butch are hinting at. It also requires a comparison of the tenor of those boards and the qualifications (?) of the bill's sponsors. If one is not allowed to use baitfish in a water that's already teeming with indigenous baitfish and not allowed to use baitfish in the middle lake of a chain of several, sometimes where the [i]verboten[/i] lake is not fished at all, one begins to suspect funny doings in the back room. There's great amusement in having the SAM list of LD285 waters in one hand & a map in the other; even a novice will form the opinion it's a political bill and not a management one.

laMaine
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Let's be serious. Most of the trout caught in Maine are stocked. When I worked in the Youth Conservation Corps in the 70's, we conducted a fishing survey on the Wild River north of Gilead. We checked every fish that every fisher(wo)man caught on the river over the course of a week. Most were stocked.

Frankly, I always thought they gave a better fight than the native species.

This IS an example of fly-fishing elitism. Get a life.

MickeyH
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

[quote]Let's be serious. Most of the trout caught in Maine are stocked. When I worked in the Youth Conservation Corps in the 70's, we conducted a fishing survey on the Wild River north of Gilead. We checked every fish that every fisher(wo)man caught on the river over the course of a week. Most were stocked.

Frankly, I always thought they gave a better fight than the native species.

This IS an example of fly-fishing elitism. Get a life.[/quote]

LA...respectfully you have no idea what you're talking about. I've fly fished in Maine since I was 10 years old and I'm hardly an elitist. The Wilid River which I do fish quite a bit is stocked by both NH and Maine because it's a runoff river prone to anchor ice and scouring thus making it a poor river for natural reproduction. It get's quite low and warm during the summer thus it's considered a put and take stream. The open law regulations agree with this. If you want a success story head down to where the Wild flows into the Andro.

Most of the streams and rivers north of say a line above Skowhegan are not stocked and sustain naturally. The waterways below this need stockings to maintain a quality fishery for the population of Central and Southern Maine.

laMaine
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

I'll assume you know more than I. But whether the trout is "native" or "stocked" really doesn't matter. It's all in the fly fishermans head.

MickeyH
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

[quote]I'll assume you know more than I. But whether the trout is "native" or "stocked" really doesn't matter. It's all in the fly fishermans head.
[/quote]

That's quite a wide brush you paint with! Actually it does matter if a fish is native or stocked. Sustainablity, reproduction, quality of fish, taste, fight, etc, etc, etc.

Butch Moore
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

democrat, perhaps you should read the link on the previous page (re: fly fishing elitists) as well?

Brian Golden
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

[b][quote]Frankly, I always thought they gave a better fight than the native species. [/quote][/b]

First off la a stocked fish can be a native. Maine only has Brook Trout, Landlocked Salmon and Blue Back Char that are native(as far as cold water gamefish).
Wilfd fish are superior in every way to stocked fish. Wild fish are more disease resistant and fight much harder than any stocked fish. I fish for Steelhead every year (out west) and catch about 90%stocked fish. As soon as you hook a wild fish you know because it fights MUCH harder and longer than any stocked fish .
MickeyH's description on the Wild is dead on. Lots of scouring and poor spawing sucess.

andyZ
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

[quote]It's all in the fly fishermans head.[/quote]

laMaine nailed that one! Nuf said!

pmh
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

What Brian said. The watershed where I do most of my stream fishing is purely wild fish. Including the chubs!

Brian Golden
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

[quote][b]laMaine nailed that one! Nuf said![/b][/quote]

Speak to any fisheries biologist and I'm sure your ignorance one the subject will change. Fish that are reared in pens do not fare as well in the wild.

andyZ
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

I guess you haven't read some of Ken Allen articles where he talks about the quality of present day hatchery fish. You have just made the point of laMaine, need it be repeated again:

[quote][size=18]It's all in the fly fishermans head.[/size][/quote]

[size=9]Nuf said[/size]

Brian Golden
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Where and when did Ken get his degree in Biology.

Brian Golden
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

andyz,
Thanks for your keen insight into this issue. Your comments have been very informational.

BlueJay
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Brian, Ken has no such degree that I'm aware of, but he sure does have a lot of hot air on occasion. :wink:

Economike
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

[quote]But whether the trout is "native" or "stocked" really doesn't matter. It's all in the fly fishermans head.[/quote]

This would depend on what "it" is, wouldn't it?

Is "it" the difference between habitat that can support wild trout and habitat that can't?

Is "it" the difference between the innate wariness of a wild trout and a hatchery trout?

If you decided to hunt deer, laMaine, would it matter to you if the deer had grown up in the wild or just happened to a house pet on the loose?

Small Town Selectman
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Speaking of Ken Allen

[/url]http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/sports/stories/3810522.html[url]

The end of this article is relevant to some of the recent rather heated discourse on AMG. All this time I thought I was a "righty", but apparently not since I belong to TU and fly fish.[/[/url]

Small Town Selectman
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Speaking of Ken Allen

[url]http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/sports/stories/3810522.html[/url]
Sorry for the previous post.....I screwed up the link

The end of this article is relevant to some of the recent rather heated discourse on AMG. All this time I thought I was a "righty", but apparently not since I belong to TU and fly fish.

pmh
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Ken's apparently not aware that a great number of waters on the LD285 "protection from baitfish" list are already plentifully supplied with indigenous baitfish.

Of the 70 million potential invaders he mentions, how many are being brainwashed into being "non-consumptive," (a null term if ever there was one)? A fishery isn't much threatened by a person who's not fishing.

democrat
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

STS, if you fly fish and belong to TU, you're definitely an elitist lefty. Other signs are that you don't kill and freeze or eat every fish you catch, you drive your ATV right up to the edge of the water you want to fish, and you leave your Foggy Mountain worm container on the shore of the fly fishing only pond, just to show those uppity fly fishermen that you think they're a bunch of pussies.

andyZ
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

Bri,

You are very welcome. Glad I could help you out. Just so you know, Ken is and expert on everything fish, especially trout.
Just ask him!

JimP
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George Smith: Protecting our last, best brook trout

I don't see being able to stuff fisherman into these nice little boxes that are so popular these days. I think that is because fishing transcends so many things. Ken Allen wants to use right vs left for explaining fishing politics? I don't think it is going to be that simple. It is more city vs country outlook.

I look at is as the people with the boots on the ground practical knowledge vs the people with the book learned theoretical knowledge. It was funny to see him paint it that way, SAM-FIC lefties? Me a right winger? :shock:

Blasphemy :wink:

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