You hit the nail on the head. Out sourcing has been the rude of all this evil. Maine is a perfect example
[quote="Tom Golebiewski"]If a deer hung around my backyard waiting to be fed it would starve.[/quote]Around here, it would get eaten before it starved.
[quote="Independent"]according to this flailing whine, now Republicans are the champions of unionized labor!
Better get the word out to them...I'm sure they'll be shocked to hear it.
Of course I absolutely LOVE the nonsensical litmus test about car ownership. It's everyone's patriotic American duty to buy an over-priced, inefficient gas-guzzling American made car (or 2, hopefully borrowing beyond your means to do it). Never mind that the companies making them are run by scumbgs who've collected salaries 100x greater than their foreign counterparts while driving their own companies into bankruptcy (which you and I now bail out).
Funny...I would have thought a good conservative would put their faith 100% in "market forces" (where poorly run companies die), rather than ask Americans to buy inferior, inefficient products in order to put money in the pockets of people who didn't deserve it.
Of course we all know that THIS kind of welfare (where individual CEO recipients run their companies into ruin while collecting millions of dollars annually) doesn't bother conservatives...it's that scummy welfare mom collecting $100 a week in food stamps that really grinds their gears![/quote]
Ah....journalism at it's finest in this day and age. Don't report, don't read, just dish out the heated propaganda.
Apparently the nerve endings attached to the hypocritium are the most sensitive to touch, and can easily stimulate "acting out."
You really are a case....a case study, that is, for knee-jerk, apoplectic behavior of the "look at me, look what I'm doing Obama support throngs." I bet it would take a calculator to tally up the piercings and tats.
First: "flailing whine?" Get a grip, comrade. You're bordering on BPD. I didn't whine, I didn't flail, I simply applied my powers of observation, perhaps a foreign concept to you who only wish to have others observe yourself, and suggested an informal survey based on same. You might even call it "investigative reporting."
Litmus test? A similar attempt at insult not supported by the post in evidence. And the paragraph that it leads goes off the deep end with speculation, hyperbole, and aggressive emotional spew.
No one, including me, has suggested that Republicans are the champions of unionized labor. You took my very simple suggestion and transformed it into a complete SAAB rear end full of bumper sticker tirades.
I do put my faith in market forces. I do not particularly support the bail out of the auto companies, which in a manner of speaking, is a bailout of the unions who control them with a suicidal grip. Perhaps the greatest failings of those who have managed them is their spineless yielding to absurd and deathly demands by the unions....demands that any one with foresight and integrity would identify as unsustainable, to use a favorite liberal word.
Market forces? I believe in them on the labor side, as well. Unions are the polar opposite of market forces. They eliminate the individual's self worth and desire to succeed on his own merits, and work to create nothing but a mass of obedient and controllable robot like uborgs.
Market forces? Those who signed up for mortgages they couldn't comprehend, or lied to qualify for, or are too irresponsible to make their payments should similarly not be bailed out. Please explain to me why those of us who never ever missed a mortgage payment, and do what it takes to live within our means, should be called on to reward the fraud, idiocy, or sheer irresponsibility of those in the favored identity groups?
If unions are so damned valuable, why is their last remaining bastion of strength in government employment, surely the last place anyone looks for stellar performance and a "fair day's work for a fair day's pay."
Once again, I didn't ask anyone to buy anything. I bought vehicles that best suited my needs and desires. I trust you bought your Pious, I mean Prious, for the same reason.
I think poorly run and poorly performing companies should die, and the same goes for governments. Of course, the latter is an impossibility, since government is the poster sine qua non for an entity getting bailed out to cover the incredible incompetence of untold throngs of "scmbags" (sic).
Lastly, I'll take this statement of yours: [b]"rather than ask Americans to buy inferior, inefficient products in order to put money in the pockets of people who didn't deserve it."[/b] to mean that unionized American auto workers for the big three don't deserve having money in their pockets.
And by the way, I trust you are down off the ceiling by now. You really should take better care of yourself.
You must be a lot of fun to work with. And I hope your union is treating you well.
One more thing....can you tell me how the unions fared under Soviet communism? Thanks....I just don't have time to study that now.
And don't forget to thank your union teachers for making you what you are today!
[quote="unionman"]Out sourcing has been the [b]rude[/b] of all this evil.[/quote]
Perhaps if we out-sourced public education, advocates of forced unionization might recognize the real [b]root[/b] of all this evil.
Personally, I thought that outsourcing as the "rude of all evil" makes a lot more sense than "root of all evil" which, as an economic proposition is dead wrong.
Mel, I don't believe they are looking for prosperity when they accept the temporary benefits. The amount received is enough to get by but not prosper by any measurement.
Unionman, I was not talking about jobs being sent overseas but jobs being lost to overseas competition. If a company shuts down an operation in Maine because they want to make the same product in another country where there are no labor standards equal to our own, their workers are not eligible for the TAA benefit.
[quote]Can you give me your list of metrics where American society has improved over the past generation or two? I really can't think of a single one.[/quote]
Gosh, that's not very imaginative, Tom.
How about not having to deal with wage and price controls? How about not having a draft? How about not facing a top marginal income tax rate of 70%? How about tax-deferred investment accounts that give people of average means a crack at the returns that only the wealthy used to get?
How about having a standard of living roughly twice what it was forty years ago?
I don't see the same illusion you do. The prosperity you imagine was a bubble and it has now burst. Not sure why you insist on having this discussion over and over again. You refuse to understand the reality that credit does not build an economy and that wealth cannot be created by trading pieces of paper. At least in decades past Americans produced tangible products. Now we produce little more than debt and bombs.
[quote]You refuse to understand the reality that credit does not build an economy and that wealth cannot be created by trading pieces of paper.[/quote]
Despite your lack of confidence in me, I can grasp the difference between real prices and nominal prices.
You can choose to ignore the evidence of impovement you demanded from me, but you can't falsify it with some mumbojumbo about "credit."
[quote]and encourage & reward unmitigated greed & fraud among the corporate elite.
Indy - It seems to me that both Dems and Reps enabled this process, but corporate executives are responsible for their own actions, as are politicians. We have only just begun to witness the fallout from that politicial cesspool that is Illinois politics and I predict that most major figures in that state's political structure will be tainted by it.
I will also predict that President Obama will face indictment for his real estate deal involving Tony Rezko and will be forced from office before the completion of his first term. The only fly in the ointment there is that Joe Biden will become President. Oh well! You can't have everything I guess!
The standard of living has not actually improved. It is a grand illusion. Wall Street extended credit and people took it to buy bigger houses, bigger cars, fancy electronics, etc.
Unfortunately, since the consumption is based on imaginary money instead of savings, it is a giant ponzi scheme. This is deja vu all over again.
Credit has long been used to finance acquisitions.
By itself that does not make the standard of living an illusion.
You may have a point in the circumstance where one's standard of living has been financed on an asset (a house) which has dropped significantly in value.
[quote]The standard of living has not actually improved. It is a grand illusion. Wall Street extended credit and people took it to buy bigger houses, bigger cars, fancy electronics, etc. [/quote]
Seriously, can't you see how silly your reasoning is?
You're claiming that "bigger houses, bigger cars, fancy electronics, [i]etc[/i]" are a purely monetary effect.
Sheesh. Try kicking a "bigger car" and see if you don't bruise your foot.
I'll grant you that financing a home is acceptable for the sake of discussion, though the 20% down payment seems to be a thing of the past.
My grandparents walked to work while they saved up to buy their first car with cash. If people still paid saved up to pay cash for everything but their house, I think the increase in the standard of living would be much less than it appears thanks to all sorts of creative financing schemes orchestrated by Wall Street and the Fed banksters.
If the credit was based on savings, I would agree that there is no real problem. This is legitimate banking and a great way for savers to interact with entrepreneurs. Unfortunately, the credit used in America today is based on the printing press. The difference is significant.
My grandparents walked to work while they saved up to buy their first car with cash.
Ya , I bet they lived in mill house right next to the mill and shopped at the company store too..Just how many folks could do that today??? I can see myself walking to construction sites all over Maine with my tools on a donkey..... :roll:
Are you for the gold standard?
[quote]Credit has long been used to finance acquisitions.
By itself that does not make the standard of living an illusion. [/quote]
David Hume observed that England, whose circulating currency consisted largely of credit and little gold, was more wealthy than France, whose currency consisted entirely of gold.
The use of credit creates value in allocating a society's resources more efficiently. Credit should not be confounded with inflation.
One the virtues of Neil Stephenson's Baroque Cycle novels is its glimpse into the financial systems of the time (Isaac Newton's day).
The contrast between England and Holland on the one hand and France (under the Sun King) on the other hand was stunning.
It is easy to see why the French Revolution took the form it did.
I oppose private Fed fiat funny money having a monopoly which can be printed and devalued at will, and I oppose fractional reserve banking. I'm for letting you decide whatever alternative you desire to use, be it gold or anything else.
It's not credit per se that is bad. Credit derived from savings is legitimate. Credit derived from thin air and printing presses and injected through fractional reserve banking, however, is not legitimate. Further, the related issue that warrants consideration is the setting of interest rates for depositors and creditors. Market rates are good. Arbitrary rates set by central banks who think they have the wisdom to guide the economy by timely rate manipulations are very dangerous.
So, Tom, are you suggesting that financial institutions ought to limit lending to an amount equal to the time deposits of their depositors (is that what you mean by savings), instead of lending the major protion of both their time deposits and demand deposits?
[quote]Credit derived from thin air and printing presses and injected through fractional reserve banking, however, is not legitimate.[/quote]
What, in this context, does "legimate" mean? It can't mean "phony." And it certainly can't mean "illegal."
The role of any central bank is to maintain a stable general price level by adjusting the supply of money to the demand for money. This requires - absolutely requires - a central bank to "print money from thin air" when the demand for money threatens to sink the price level. This is a monetary condition called "deflation."
For people who'd like to see a great explanation of how this works, check out this [url=http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/2009/01/deflation-inflation-and-mone....
If you still believe, Tom, that....
....then, let's try a thought experiment.
Let's imagine that no paper credit exists. None whatsover. No dollars. No checks.
Let's imagine that we want a measure to approximate standard-of-living.
We need to find the value of all the goods and services currently produced in the United States. How can we determine their value without using the dollar as a unit of account?
Well, we can arrive at a value by assigning a number to one good and expressing the value of all other goods and services as the ratio at which it is exchanged. In other words, we require a [i]numeraire[/i] - a number to serve as a unit of account.
This sounds complicated, but it's really fairly easy. Just for fun, let's use an "8 ounce bag of strawberry mini marshmallows" as our [i]numeraire[/i].
Now all we need to determine the value of all the goods and services produced in the United States is to find their exchange value in 8 ounce bags of strawberry mini marshmallows, sum up the result, and divide by the population to get a per capita figure.
Ah, I've got it right here: the per capita value of all goods and services produced in the United States in 2008 is equivalent to the exchange value of 48,000 8 oz. bags of strawberry mini marshmallows.
Now, let's go back four decades to 1968 and calculate the per capita value of U. S. output in 8 oz. bags of strawberry mini marshmallows. And the answer is 20,500 8 oz. bags of strawberry mini marshmallows.
So, how about that? Even if we completely eliminate using any dollars or other paper credit in our calculations, the per capita output of the United States, using 8 oz. bags of strawberry mini marshmallows as our unit of account, has more than doubled in four decades. I rest my case.
Oh yeah, Mr. Smarty Pants? What if I don't LIKE mini-marshmellows? What dy'a say to that , huh?
In a free country like ours, you can always exchange strawberry mini marshmallows for full-sized plain ones. Or trade 12,000 bags of strawberry mini marshmallows for a new Ford Ranger. Just for example. :wink:
As to the title of the article....what does one mean by "Working People"? What are non-Working People...retirees? The term "Working People" is used almost exclusivley by Liberal-Socialists but never really defined. I think they mean uneducated blue collar grunts.
"When I joined the Democratic party, they were the party of the working man. Now, they're the party of tne nonworking illegal alien."
John W. Chapman (c)
Are you for the gold standard?[/quote]
For the gold standard to work, one must convert all existing paper into gold...put another way, the value of gold must equal the paper. Before the government began simply printing money, I had figure gold would have to value well over $8K an ounce...now it must be more than $12K and that does not count the rest of the world.
yes, Mike, money created out of thin air is theft against those who held the other dollars already in circulation. The commodity is the money, the paper certificates are just that, claims to the commodity itself. Again, here we go round and round debating the moral legitimacy of fiat currency masquerading as money. Excuse me while I bang my head of the wall some more. I do not believe in the Fed fiat debt system. You do. Empirical evidence supports my view, as real money built this nation and fiat paper has brought it to its knees in the biggest debt bubble in world history. Don't let that inconvenient reality alter your theory about standard of living and bruised toes.
A full generation ago Douglas Adams warned of the problems associated with the movements of small, green bits of paper.
I once owned a Ford Ranger. Your value is overstated.
[quote="Melvin Udall"]"Democrats are for the working people,"
They gave us liquor ( eliminated prohibition), then made taxes so high we can't afford to drink.