Most of the above is indicative of why this issue is a no win for anyone on this forum.
I firmly believe it is a issue so intensively personal that it should go back into the closet so to speak and be between the individual and god.
I do believe Roe was a bad decision in how it was determined at the time. Thus putting a emphasis on overturning which no-one has managed to do, highlighting
the problem with original finding.
I do believe the procedure has unfortunately become a method of birth control without any extenuating circumstances for some and a political tool for others.Particularly Planned Parenthood . Just what would they do w/out it ?
With all due respect to those who profess their beliefs ,you are giving others the opportunity to respond with their attacks. Although it is difficult to not acknowledge TC's last comment above has some validity. Although if asked I suspect Jesus would concur he is an asshole. Which IMO is his goal.
He can be what ever he wants as long as Susan or whoever owns this forum and allows it here. Until then we have to choose how to deal with them. There are more than one
I have usually stayed away from this topic and religious theme threads. Because they all devolve into rudeness and crassness aimed at hurting fellow members for absolutely no purpose other than to hurt.
Many years ago I saw the issue destroy the congregation in my church and I have seen a past family situation where it probably in hind sight prevented
could have some future heartache .
As a father of three girls I am glad I was never confronted with the issue.
It makes absolutely no difference whether anyone responds to these shitheads or not. They continue to infest this forum whether or not they are responded to or not. On any other forum they would have been tossed out years ago.
Unless they served the purposes of the owner.
Mel a very obvious and understandable thing IMO.
Because Matt asked me directly what my views are, here goes:
I think abortion after about three months is immoral, in the absence of severe abnormalities that I won't describe here.
I use three months because by that point, the risk of natural miscarriage is vanishingly small, no matter the age of the mother. After that, it's a baby.
Placing humankind in our evolutionary context, we are hard-wired to impute moral status to human life, above the moral status we assign to any other life form.
We are also hard-wired to propagate the species. The "potential" life developing in the womb is human, and is the next generation. Therefore, in my view, human beings ought to assign profound moral value to it.
Now for the twist: I am not in favor of laws that restrict abortion.
I think such laws if enacted lack the consent of the governed, and that's very important to our Republic.
Earlier to day I did a brief search for statistics on abortion.
There of course were numerous sites but from what I could see they showed a decrease
over the decade and beyond.
This link has a chart I found useful
Strangely enough the numbers are rarely spoken about in conversations such as ours .
Mainemom, I have a new respect for you based on what you wrote above. I totally agree. I don’t believe abortion should be used as birth control, yet I don’t want old men controlling a woman’s body either.
Kudos to you.
I don't believe in forcing my views on others, neither should they force theirs on me.
Believe it's ok? Fine, but don't demand that I agree... or demand that I pay for it.
The matter of when that beginning life acquires its own right to exist still needs resolution. Before that point, there is only one person and one set of rights. After that point, there is another being and two sets of rights. This is the unstated issue behind all the public posturing. And it still ignores the rights of the other parent.
I am not in favor of taxpayer funded abortion.
Nor do I favor the state forcing doctors or hospitals to do abortions in order to get state funds or federal funds.
I am open to the possibility of allowing a father to sue a doctor and the mother on behalf of the baby if a late term abortion kills a healthy viable baby (say, after six months). But I'm no lawyer and it's probably not workable.
Thanks for your reply, Mainemom. We’re pretty close in our perspectives as well.
Drafted for submission elsewhere:
Cuomo-Gosnell Boutique Franchises: Newborn homicide as social fashion
The new inhumane abortion orthodoxy evolving is contemptible. Moments that give one the willies include: listening to the words of Virginia Governor Northam; the standing ovation in New York's Senate Chamber; the Virginia Delegate testifying on her bill; and the pink lights atop the World Trade Center in celebration of New York's passage of horrific legislation.
Perhaps we'll see a new chain of Cuomo-Gosnell “Belly Tuck” Boutiques open, with the first shops on Park Avenue and other trendy Manhattan locales. Reluctant mothers will be able to spend a day at the spa getting a new do and a mani-pedi while ridding themselves of an unwanted anomaly on their otherwise perfect physiques.
Several questions come to mind regarding the emerging, freeing orthodoxy:
When do the unalienable Rights, endowed by their Creator, among these Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness, kick in for a newborn if not at birth?
At what point does the father have a say in the newborn's fate?
When will a Peter Singer amendment be proposed to legalize later homicide as a social good?
Will this dogma evolve to terminating problem adults at any age, including elders needing significant care?
If a mother is ready to order the homicide of her newborn, shouldn't Child Protective Services be called in to declare the mother unfit and rescue the infant?
Isn't it time to declare that newborns are not disposable, that infant lives matter? Don't neonates deserve the protections of society?
When will we see signs and bumper stickers and banners declaring Newborn Lives Matter?
To execute a living baby near to or after birth is murder, plain and simple. There really is no ethical or logical question about it. As I have said before, between the moment of conception and the moment of birth, when is that living creature allowed to be killed? I think that the reptilian like embryo or early fetus is probably not a sentient human but somewhere along the line it becomes on and has the right to live. Tough question.
Some of the stages of development were debunked as purposely favoring evolution to appear as a reptile. I haven't studied out the matter so I can't say if your photo chart is accurate or not.
What I do believe is that an egg with 23 human chromosomes is fertilized by sperm with 23 human chromosomes and this union produces a human being. There is no chance of any other outcome.
cleaning up the culture by eliminating those who will never enjoy a certain quality of life sounds quite humane and noble. One just has to be concerned about who is making these decisions on our behalf.Could a certain amount of gray hair become an indicator that someone has embarked on the inevitable path to becoming a useless eater? Defining terms becomes an issue.
Not wanting to impose one's beliefs on others is neighborly however as a nation we impose our mandates on other nations and entities at the tip of the sword. When nations abandon moral laws in particularly, chaos and anarchy fill the void. In the absence of formal guidelines such as the 10 commandments, the Golden Rule was was promoted at one time. People having abortions might reflect for a moment if the idea of them being terminated in like manner might mean anything to them. Again, the window to eliminate useless eaters for the general good of society and the individual could become entertained by lawmakers as we become comfortable with living in a death centered culture.
Well, here we go: the people who think it's not immoral to kill babies in the womb can't help themselves, now they want to force us to pay for it.
An Act To Prevent Discrimination in Public and Private Insurance Coverage for Pregnant Women in Maine
Coverage for abortion services
1. Coverage. The department shall provide coverage for abortion services to a MaineCare member.
2. Funding. Abortion services that are not federally approved Medicaid services must be funded by state funds.
This is how they get people like me, who do not want to get into the politics of abortion, off the sidelines.
They disgust me.
Edit to link a list of the sponsors here.
Sponsors and Cosponsors
Sponsored By: Representative Joyce McCREIGHT of Harpswell
Cosponsored By: Representative Kent ACKLEY of Monmouth
Representative Christopher BABBIDGE of Kennebunk
Representative Shawn BABINE of Scarborough
Representative Donna BAILEY of Saco
Representative Pinny BEEBE-CENTER of Rockland
Senator Shenna BELLOWS of Kennebec
Representative Seth BERRY of Bowdoinham
Representative Lydia BLUME of York
Senator Catherine BREEN of Cumberland
Representative Michael BRENNAN of Portland
Representative Heidi BROOKS of Lewiston
Representative Christopher CAIAZZO of Scarborough
Representative Barbara CARDONE of Bangor
Representative Anne CARNEY of Cape Elizabeth
Senator Everett CARSON of Cumberland
Senator Justin CHENETTE of York
Senator Benjamin CHIPMAN of Cumberland
Representative Kristen CLOUTIER of Lewiston
Representative Benjamin COLLINGS of Portland
Representative Janice COOPER of Yarmouth
Representative Scott CUDDY of Winterport
Representative Matthea DAUGHTRY of Brunswick
Representative Diane DENK of Kennebunk
Representative Dale DENNO of Cumberland
Senator Susan DESCHAMBAULT of York
Senator James DILL of Penobscot
Representative Janice DODGE of Belfast
Representative Donna DOORE of Augusta
Representative Victoria DOUDERA of Camden
Representative Michelle DUNPHY of Old Town
Representative Jeffrey EVANGELOS of Friendship
Representative Richard FARNSWORTH of Portland
Representative Ryan FECTEAU of Biddeford
Representative Victoria FOLEY of Biddeford
Representative Drew GATTINE of Westbrook
Speaker Sara GIDEON of Freeport
Representative Lori GRAMLICH of Old Orchard Beach
Senator Geoffrey GRATWICK of Penobscot
Representative Thom HARNETT of Gardiner
Representative Allison HEPLER of Woolwich
Representative Daniel HOBBS of Wells
Representative Brian HUBBELL of Bar Harbor
Representative Patricia HYMANSON of York
Representative Erik JORGENSEN of Portland
Representative Victoria KORNFIELD of Bangor
Representative H. LANDRY of Farmington
Senator Nathan LIBBY of Androscoggin
Senator Louis LUCHINI of Hancock
Representative Colleen MADIGAN of Waterville
Representative Anne-Marie MASTRACCIO of Sanford
Representative Ann MATLACK of St. George
Representative David McCREA of Fort Fairfield
Representative Genevieve McDONALD of Stonington
Representative Andrew McLEAN of Gorham
Representative Gina MELARAGNO of Auburn
Representative Michele MEYER of Eliot
Senator Rebecca MILLETT of Cumberland
Senator David MIRAMANT of Knox
Representative Matthew MOONEN of Portland
Representative Margaret O'NEIL of Saco
Representative Sarah PEBWORTH of Blue Hill
Representative Ann PEOPLES of Westbrook
Representative Anne PERRY of Calais
Representative Teresa PIERCE of Falmouth
Representative Lois RECKITT of South Portland
Representative Tiffany ROBERTS-LOVELL of South Berwick
Representative Deane RYKERSON of Kittery
Senator Heather SANBORN, H. of Cumberland
Senator Linda SANBORN, L. of Cumberland
Representative John SCHNECK of Bangor
Representative Braden SHARPE of Durham
Representative Michael SYLVESTER of Portland
Representative Rachel TALBOT ROSS of Portland
Representative Denise TEPLER of Topsham
Representative Maureen TERRY of Gorham
Representative Ryan TIPPING of Orono
Representative Ralph TUCKER of Brunswick
Senator Eloise VITELLI of Sagadahoc
Representative Charlotte WARREN of Hallowell
Representative Stanley ZEIGLER of Montville
If they are so secure in their beliefs, then why do they still fight to prevent any video of the procedures from being shown? It is, after all, just a medical procedure... right? No chance of seeing a human baby squirming in obvious pain, unable to scream because the vocal cords have been cut to prevent vocalizations... right? It's just tissue... right?
Is it because they know the reaction would be similar to video of the clubbing of baby seals?